Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Isidore Bloom's avatar

Doyle’s gleeful misogyny towards an “acceptable” target — either a specific cis woman he’s decided wants to force all trans men to desist, while also implicitly accusing her of transmisogyny, both on less than zero evidence, or a notional cis strawwoman he’s created just to yell at— is kind of hard to stomach.

I’m particularly struck by how vicious he is towards this hypothetical (or “hypothetical”) transmasc-exclusive pro-transfem cis feminist, because she is, notionally and theoretically, of course, not flattering his ego and not interested in what he, as a man, has to say about feminism and women’s liberation.

Like, it’s almost to the point of caricature, right?

I really appreciate this essay overall! Just, Doyle’s behaviour is egregious enough to briefly make me forget what else I wanted to comment on.

Expand full comment
jesse's avatar

Oh this is great. I got pretty bent out of shape about that Doyle essay, too, as an example of this weird kind of radlib framing that seems to be so popular among trans people. You touched on a lot of stuff that I've been dying to see explained in actual detail. Gender essentialism is an ineffective sort of trans-defensive propaganda, men's problems are both serious and not proof that patriarchy doesn't exist, the relational nature of gender etc-- all stuff I've been trying to puzzle out in my own writing.

I want to push back a bit against two things: First, I don't think that Doyle's problem is a trivial hypothetical. I don't think I have ever personally been in a trans scene where shit-talk about men (and a lot of casual cruelty and rejection levied at trans men) wasn't par for the course. The result for me personally was that I spent most of my twenties thinking of communities of cis men as places that would only reject or harm me, while the "safe haven" of trans culture was overall extremely critical and demeaning to me in a way that no one would tolerate if it was levied at anyone else. And, y'know, that just wasn't true-- the kinds of nerdy cis guys I tend to hang out with treat me fine, and also don't subject me to "lol ugh cis men am i right?" social litmus-testing or frame all of my problems and social friction as an expression of patriarchal power-struggling.

Second, relatedly, I don't think that framing trans men as "failed women" rather than women really makes much of a difference-- it still obligates us to do a kind of third-gendering of ourselves as a different kind of beast from cis men. When I wrote about this, I ended up focusing on the way that trans men habitually frame our problems as Trans Problems but explicitly not Man Problems, rather than understanding ourselves via a lens that proposes our transness and maleness are the same thing. (Personally, I don't ID as nonbinary, but I tend to think along the lines that trans people in general are non-binary hyphenated in that the binary does not make room for complications like transness or queerness, just as you described.)

The way that men are constructed as empowered, ego-driven, and even dangerous winds up being weaponized against trans people of all sorts, but trans men cannot even reject this characterization or press back against our own ostracization because, well, that's just what everyone thinks it means to be a man. I think Noah Zazanis did a better job than Doyle reckoning with this in his piece (linked below) but he still ultimately concludes that trans men "want from feminism something it can never give us: to be acknowledged as men within a m/f paradigm, without reproducing m>f" and that the tension cannot be resolved. And, sure, maybe! But that really sounds like trans men have no option for both understanding ourselves as men and improving our sociopolitical situation unless we build something anew and apart from feminism, which would require a lot of reinventing-the-wheel and is generally frowned upon as oppositional by the feminists we have always looked to as teachers and comrades, to put it mildly.

https://thenewinquiry.com/on-hating-men-and-becoming-one-anyway/

Expand full comment
10 more comments...

No posts